NEW YORK — A Metropolitan Transportation Authority official says Amtrak demands have stalled a project that would give Metro-North commuters access to Manhattan’s West Side for the first time.
In an interview with the Rockland-Westchester Journal News, Janno Lieber, MTA’s chief development officer says negotiations between Amtrak and the MTA have broken down, delaying the start of bidding for designs of the Penn Station Access Project by at least six months.
The $1 billion MTA plan, which would follow completion of the long-delayed East Side Access project to bring Long Island Rail Road trains to Grand Central Terminal, would allow some Metro-North New Haven Line trains to reach Penn Station via a new connection. It would also see four new stations built in the Bronx.
Amtrak, which owns much of the property on which the new line would be built, wants to collect access fees for the use of the Hell Gate Bridge, Lieber told the paper, and wants the MTA to pay much of the cost to replace a 111-year-old, Amtrak-owned bridge in the Bronx. Lieber has said that could cost $400 to $600 million.
“We are concerned that the commuter population, in New York State especially, is being held ransom for some unreasonable demands,” Lieber told the paper.
Amtrak spokesman Jason Abrams said in a statement that the passenger railroad has been cooperating with the MTA efforts, but wants “to ensure that the proposed expansion of Metro-North service does not adversely impact Amtrak intercity passenger operation, which will see a significant expansion in 2021 with the introduction of expanded Acela service between New York and Boston.”
The full Journal News article is available here.
It would be nice if we still had William D. Middleton with us to sort this all out………..
Hi Charles,
Some info, maybe not complete.
Movie (org) Pelham 123 was excellent. Only technical err was with the grade time signals at the end of the movie. Grade time signals cannot be manually (or otherwise) set to green. Second. car probably would have derailed at 14th Street, and if not, Brooklyn Bridge.
Next, 6 trains serve Pelham Bay, not Co-op City. 5 trains serve Co-op City via Westchester Ave and Southern Blvd to E. 180th Street, then via the original NYW&B to Baychester station.
Lastly, New Haven trains ran via the Hell Gate route and those were abandoned stations as pointed out, stations served by New Haven and NYW&B trains. To my knowledge, no commuter trains of those carriers ever went into NYP. They served a station in the S. Bronx, Willis Ave, which connected with the 3rd Avenue El.
Please all, correct any errors here.
George the electrification is slightly different than you posted. Charles is correct that when Cos Cob power plant became obsolete MNRR planned and implemented a conversion to 60 HZ 12.5 KV AC commercial power. Details are fuzzy but conversion happened one summer with just reduced diesel service for several weeks.
A few years ago Amtrak converted the Hell Gate route from New Rochelle to Gate interlocking from 25 HZ 12 KV to the same MNRR power. That way there was not a possibility of problems switching the Amtrak trains to the other power type at Shell interlocking and maybe blocking that interlocking.
Unfortunately the MNRR M-8s presently running do not have transformer capacity to operate from Gate into NYPS on the 25 HZ power even though voltage is nominally the same. Now if the additional 66 M-8s on order will have the 25 / 60 HZ transformers installed is unknown ? Also the present M-8s do not have the automatic center taps for operating east of New Haven on the 25 KV 60 HZ Amtrak lines to BOS and future electrification of the Springfield line .
Electrification of the New York Connecting Railroad [from Wikepedia]: “Like the New Haven, the NYCR traction power was distributed using the 2 x 11 kV autotransformer topology. Two wires, the feeder and the catenary (often called the trolley wire), carried voltage of 11 kV to ground, but of opposite phase such that the feeder and catenary were 22 kV phase-to-phase. Six autotransformer stations, spaced an average of 3.8 miles apart along the line, converted power. Each station contained oil circuit breakers for both feeder and trolley buses, bus sectioning switches, and one [6] 3 MVA outdoor autotransformer.
The LIRR portion of the system (essentially everything to the south of Bowery Bay), along with the freight catenary from West Farms over Hell Gate to Bowery Bay, was removed in 1969-1970. By 1986 Amtrak, which had inherited the Connecting Railroad, changed the traction power system over to 60 Hz operation coincident with the Metro-North Railroad re-powering of the New Haven Line at 60 Hz and de-activation of the Cos Cob Power Station. The autotransformer architecture was retained, but the source of power changed from the Metro-North New Haven Line system to the Con Edison-supplied Van Nest Substation (40.8420°N 73.8633°W).”
GEORGE – I wish I could help you on the voltages. That’s something I should know but don’t. My impression which may be very wrong is that the 25-cycle power went away with the Cos Cob power plant.
Charles, I was not referring to commuter traffic across Hell Gate Bridge. I believe, but never have been able to verify, that there was once commuter service down the NY Connecting Railroad from New Rochelle. Next time you ride Amtrak to/from New Haven or beyond look carefully. On both sides of the track you will note derelict stations. A couple are just remains of platforms, one has been built into a substation and another is returning to the earth with a collapsed roof etc. There may have been service down this line via the NY, W. & B. to the south Bronx with a connecting ferry across the Harlem River as George mentioned below. This has always intrigued me but I have never taken the time to do the research.
Another reason why logistically this is not a big deal – I think that MN New Haven line has remained 11,000 volt 25 cycle (original PRR-NH setup), even though newer catenary is higher voltage and 60 cycle, so no problem routing these MN trains over Hell Gate and into Penn Station. Might need extra yard space somewhere. I think the Amtrak Acela and Amtrak electric motors will operate on several voltage and cycle choices between NYP and Boston. Could one of our electrical experts amplify?
Another delay, another lawsuit
ROBERT – I’m not aware of any commuter service ever over the Hell Gate Bridge. As far as I know, every passenger train over the Hell Gate Bridge was Boston/ New Haven to Philadelphia/ Washington. So, Governor Cuomo and The Donald will need to put their Cindy Lauper – like dyed hair Queensborough heads together to figure out how to fund this, along with the Gateway which is not yet funded. Along with a few billion-dollar side issues like Moynihan Station plus figuring out how a mile of subway in Manhattan took 60 years to build and cost more money than has ever been printed.
I’m not familiar with the Hutchinson River Bridge, only that much of the New Haven Railroad infrastructure well into our time was a huge demolition bill (Cos Cob power plant; engine shed in Bronx). But if you want to see serious decrepitude and a trillion-dollar replacement cost, drive Robert Moses’ Cross-Bronx Expressway from Throgs Neck to the Harlem River.
Charles – New York Connecting was joint PRR-NYNH&H. Two tracks on Hell Gate Bridge were for NH freight to Bay Ridge floats to NJ and LI points. The Hell Gate Bridge freight tracks would not access LIRR Harold Interlocking and the PRR route to Penn Station. The NH Harlem River Branch was for commuters, and had a ferry connection from the South Bronx before Hell Gate Bridge was built. Anyone out there, feel free to correct my sometimes imperfect memory.
GEORGE P – If memory serves, the Hell Gate lead south (railroad west) of New Rochelle was two tracks, even thought the Hell Gate bridge is wide enough for four tracks. Something in my brain from way back when makes me think this was The New York Connecting Railroad, a term that also covered the Hell Gate Bridge. As far as I know, this hugely expensive project was 100% owned by the New Haven, which must have gotten some revenue moving freight onto Long Island.
I really don’t blame Amtrak on this one. (Did i really say I don’t blame Amtrak?) The reason being is that Metro North doesn’t really do a stellar job in handling Amtrak between New Haven and New Rochelle. I’ve always felt that MN delays more Amtrak passengers on a daily basis than all of the freight railroads combined. I use Amtrak in the NEC several times a year and many times we’ve been sitting still waiting for MN to give us a clear signal or loping along at 10-15 mph while cars are whipping past us on the Connecticut Turnpike and/or the NYS Thruway. This might be a bit better since I’m assuming that Amtrak will do the dispatching but the NEC is the best part of Amtrak and it is the model for Amtrak’s future. If its trains are delayed then the advantages of the corridor as far as speed go decline.
Charles is right. This project probably needs to be done. Does anyone remember when this line last had commuter service? But Amtrak needs to be careful and not be pressured by Metro North which seems to want a free ride. Why wouldn’t they not expect to pay access fees and also not pay to upgrade that old bridge to be more suitable for increased and higher speed traffic? Governor Cuomo and Chucky Schumer will also become involved in this dispute if they can get in front of the camera so it should get interesting.
Charles – It’s been a while since I studied this, but my memory is that the right-of-way north (railroad east) from Hell Gate Bridge is at least six tracks wide for several miles, being the former Harlem River Branch of the New Haven, also used by New York, Westchester & Boston trains on their last leg to a ferry terminal in The Bronx.
To answer R. Messera, this is from Wikipedia: “The Pelham Bay Bridge, also known as the Amtrak Hutchinson River Bridge, is a two-track movable railroad bridge that carries the Northeast Corridor (NEC) over the Hutchinson River in the Bronx, New York, upstream from the vehicular/pedestrian Pelham Bridge. It is owned by Amtrak, which provides passenger service, and is used by CSX Transportation and the Providence & Worcester Railroad for freight traffic.
The New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad completed construction of the bridge in 1907. Amtrak partially rehabilitated it in 2009.[4] The bridge is obsolete and requires extensive ongoing maintenance, with speeds restricted to 45 miles per hour (72 km/h). The lift span is manned and required to open on demand; it does so several times per day for commercial boats.[5]
Amtrak plans to replace the bridge with a new high-level fixed bridge with clearance for maritime traffic. Preliminary work began in 2013. MTA’s Metro-North Railroad has proposed the Penn Station Access using the bridge for a so-called Hell Gate Line service which would allow some New Haven Line trains to access New York Penn Station.”
Can someone give us a update on the Pelham bay bridge? Age? Number of tracks? Condition? Problems in the past? Is it a draw bridge? Why Amtrak suddenly needs it replaced? Us in the hinterlands are curious.
About frequencies – 25 Hz vs. 60 Hz. – going back over a hundred years to the beginning:
There was quite a battle over which type of electrical current should be developed for commercial distribution. DC power was seen by some as ideal on the premise that a DC distribution system would be very simple. And at one time, in fact, there were communities in the USA that were wired up for DC for lights and power in homes and shops. But because of certain characteristics of DC distribution, including voltage drop, the trend soon favored AC.
AC power can be supplied through a wide range of frequencies. It could be 12½ Hz, it could be 400 Hz., or any frequency in between; but there’s a catch. The higher the frequency the more the power decays over distance. On the other hand, the higher frequency power has more ‘pop’, so that relays, etc, can be smaller. Transformers too, as has already pointed out.
When the Steam Railroads Electrified, they did not have the luxury of purchasing power from a grid. So they got to pick what worked best for them. That went well with steam era mentality! From that point of view 25 Hz. power appeared to be an ideal choice because, it was thought, that autotransformer stations could be placed further apart than if they had chosen 50 or 60 Hz. power; while, again it was thought, the size of the transformers and traction motors would still be manageable. Again, think steam era know-how!
Whether or not those assumptions were valid is a question that can be discussed for the next hundred years. The fact is that the North American power grid went in at 60 Hz., leaving the electrified railroads isolated from the grid. When it became time to make significant improvements, such as the Metroliner program, the choice was made to unify the various older distribution systems and use that for all expansion as well; and, if possible, connect that to the grid.
At the time there was no efficient method to convert between 60 Hz. and 25 Hz. You could use a device which was like a motor and an alternator, driven by 60 Hz. power and creating 25 Hz. power, but the disadvantages are apparent. So, piece by piece, 60 Hz. power began to be implemented; sometimes, but not always, at a higher voltage. And the former Lackawanna was converted from 3000 volts DC to 25,000 volts 60 Hz.
But technology improves over time. Now it is possible to convert 60 Hz. power to 25 Hz. power without having to regenerate it. That removed the imperative to quickly unify all of the power distribution systems at 60 Hz., although of course that is still the trend. But, ironically, the result has been that we have gone from “typical” 11,000 volt 25 Hz. systems (Pennsylvania, Reading, and New Haven) to interconnected segments of differing voltages and frequencies so that the equipment needs to be capable of switching from one current to another!
To understand this article one must click on the link and study the attached map. This is not new trackage – it has existed for as long as the Hell Gate Bridge has existed. It follows the route of all Boston – Washington Amtrak trains and before that roughly half of New Haven Railroad (and successor Penn Central) corridor trains. This proposal makes so much sense it screams out to be implemented. Co-Op City is about 50 years old, and for all 50 years has been a transit desert. As is, really, most of East Bronx. I couldn’t even imagine how long it takes to get to Co-Op City via the Pelham subway (schlepping through Harlem, South Bronx and East Bronx) and a connecting bus. The Pelham subway? Not even the movie was any good.
Quick thumbnail. transformers operating at 25 HZ need a lot more iron core to produce the same amount of power output. a 25 HZ transformer is approximately 2-1/2 times the weight of an equal power 60 HZ transformer. Since the power needed on the M-8s is fixed their transformers are lower weight 60 HZ and could not operate with enough power on the 12 KV 25 HZ PRR system.
Now for technical reasons the old PRR 25 HZ CAT transformers are not 60 HZ capable but since sometime in the 1970 – 80s Amtrak has installed dual frequency transformers in all facilities. All Amtrak electric motors have a dual frequency transformers that operate seamlessly going from PRR 12 KV 26 HZ to MNRR -12.5 KV 60 HZ AC. They also have a center tap transformer that allows going from 12.5 KV to 25 KV. The switching is either manual or automatic, On ACS-64s the transformers are somewhat bigger than past motors to meet short time ratings and the 2 – 1000KW HEP 60 HZ inverters,+ a few other inverters,
EMUs for NJ Transit have dual frequency transformers some that can automatically change voltage and others that must be changed from the outside. All SEPTA EMUs now left operating have full dual frequency capability but only provisions to install voltage changing capability.
WIKI only has it partially correct . The final delivered order for M-8s and the pending order have provisions for voltage changing for east of New Haven. Do not know of any reason that all M-8s have space to install ? We do not know if only the one train set used to test east of New Haven has the voltage changing installed or more ?. The order for the 66 to be delivered will have the voltage changing installed as of last bulletin. Have not seen any bulletin as if the 66 will have dual frequency transformers . If so those M=8s will be much heavier and their suspension may need tweaking ?
BRITT – So it’s not just me, it’s you also, that’s no particular fan of electric traction, though I’ve ridden all of it. Aside from riding electric trains (trolleys, subways, trolley buses) in many parts of America and the world, let’s just talk about Metro New York. I’ve ridden every possible combination of New York subways, LIRR, NYNH&H, Metro-North, Amtrak, PATH Train, Jersey Transit NEC ….. and only this afternoon did I come to find out how little I know about the various voltages in New York and NEC. Time for an article in TRAINS-MAG to sort all this out. … The irony is, aside from me being a congenital rail fan, part of my career was in high voltage distribution.
Im also impressed with history of this topic. This to me is why Trains Magazine online exists, Railroad and Railroad stuff & history only! Now this topic also proves at least to me, that 3rd rail is much more easy to “play with”. Example, 3rd rail will always be DC, but the new stuff can convert DC in to AC motors in new stuff. And most importantly, Overheard wire gotta be stretched, cant convert it easily on the vehicle like 3rd rail, but last and certainly not least, overhead wires and the towers that hold them are just a freakn eyesore! Dont get me wrong, if it were up to me all roads would be 2 rails!!
Lawrence, I have done some research (on Wikipedia) since my earlier post and you are correct. Those tracks and abandoned stations were once used by the New Haven and the New York, Westchester and Boston to serve a station in the South Bronx which connected to the Third Avenue “L”. Very interesting write-up on the N.Y, W, & B. on Wikipedia. There were originally 6 tracks on this stretch north (east) of Hell Gate Bridge. Two for the N.Y, W, & B., two for New Haven passenger trains and two for New Haven freight trains. Now that has been reduced to just two owned by Amtrak.
This has become a most interesting article due to the comments. I learned a lot today.
Alan: You say that MN’s M8s can’t run east of New Haven. However, the Wikipedia entry for the M8s states, “Unlike in earlier classes, changeover between the two AC voltages [12.5 kV to 25 kV — on Shore Line East] can be made by the engineer while on the move.”
Alan – Just to stay in the weeds here for a moment, what do you mean by “transformer capacity” to function at both 25 and 60 HZ at roughly the same voltage? Do present Amtrak motors just do it, or is some sort of automatic or manual changeover necessary that present MN M-8s are incapable of?