COATICOOK, Quebec — More than 60 political and business representatives from both sides of the Canada-U.S. border packed the former Coaticook railway station, now a craft brewery, this week to plead for a new night train between Montreal and Boston.
Francois Pepin, a retired network planner with Montreal’s transit agency, Société de transport de Montréal (STM), heads the organization behind the effort, the Quebec-based Fondation Trains de Nuit. He said that with the existing support, and talks already underway with railways and Canada’s federal and provincial governments, trains could be rolling by 2026.
The route would see two types of service. Five daily round trips would offer commuter service for the 160 kilometers (99 miles) between Montreal and Sherbrooke, Que., a major university town nestled among the touristy Eastern Townships. Travel time would be 1 hour, 45 minutes. One of these trains would continue overnight, with sleeping, coach and dining cars, for the remaining 14 hours to Boston. Contrary to some thinking, it would not connect to Amtrak’s Downeaster in Portland, Maine. “The night train would go to Boston,” Pepin said. “Customers would not like a transfer in Portland.”
Pepin said officials from communities along the route “really are enthusiastic; they recognize it would help tourism and business in the region.”
The route would run over Canadian Pacific Railway tracks to Coaticook, the last stop before crossing the international border.
The U.S. segment would be over Genesee & Wyoming’s St. Lawrence & Atlantic tracks, making several stops en route to Old Orchard Beach, a popular destination for Quebecers, and then on to Boston. A portion of that route is also being discussed for a commuter rail operation, while another group would like to see the tracks removed for use as a trail [see “Rails vs. Trails conflict heats up …,” Trains News Wire, Sept. 2, 2022].
Canadian portion of route requires major upgrades
Pepin said the major stumbling block is repair of the CP portion of the route,where trains can only travel 25 mph. He said $100 million would be needed to upgrade the line: “You need to improve it to 60 mph at least to be competitive with the car.”
He said the line would be “about the same” as the old Grand Trunk route that used to take vacationers to the Maine seashore. “It still is a popular destination in the summer,” he said.
He said trackage is in much better shape on the U.S. portion, so he expects little upgrade would be needed.
Pepin said there already is some federal funding apportioned to the rail right of way that could be used for further studies. “Governments know we’re working on this,” he said. Indeed, several Quebec elected officials attended, as well as Maine state Rep. Lori Gramlich, who represents Old Orchard Beach. She called it “a wonderful economic opportunity” and said the meeting was the “beginning of a conversation.”
Pepin was not concerned about equipment, noting there is plenty of rental, used, or new train product on the market, though obviously rental or used would be cheaper. “So, once we’re there we’ll see what’s the best choice,” he said.
A 2017 market study ,by Toronto-based LITrans and Ryerson (now Toronto Metropolitan) University, said there were 2,050 potential daily trips between Montreal and Sherbrooke. Promoters envision about 120 passengers in sleepers and 70 in coach for the U.S. segment.
I would think the preferred route would be through NH to Essex/Burlington, VT and then north. I don’t know how G&W feels about that. Shorter route, generally better track, more customers on line.
For what it’s worth column
Currently, Montreal-Boston, there are 3 round trip flights a day on Air Canada/Jazz. All 3 flights use smaller aircraft, 90-140 seats per aircraft, I think.
Montreal-Portland, Maine no scheduled commercial airline service. And Flight Aware only showed 1 private flight in the last 5 days.
I did not bother with Boston-Portland.
In such a small market I have to ask where did the study cited get their numbers.
Anybody got a few million to throw at a passenger train?
Time for a financial and political reality perspective on this topic:
1) To serve Portland and Orchard Beach would require this proposed train to follow the ex-B&M “Downeaster” route between Boston-Portland. As Amtrak failed to show interest in dropping tracks in the tunnel of the “Big Dig” their is no connection between Boston’s South Station and North Station. Forced to utilize North Station means no servicing or maintenance facilities for an overnight train; cut-off from NEC connections.
2) For passengers disembarking/boarding en route between Montreal-Boston, e.g., Orchard Beach, how would customs and immigrations be handled by both countries; the cost; who bears such cost?
3) Given the acute shortage of sleepers, diners, and lounges, what would be the source to “dry lease” such equipment? Given my experience on the “Maple Leaf,” how would F&B products be handled as the train traveled between countries–off-loading or locked-up?
4) Acknowledging Amtrak’s well known proclivity to proclaim all current–and proposed routes as operating under its monopoly; an eagerness to downplay cooperation with private operators; and professing if it’s not their idea they have no interest, how would a relationship be secured with Amtrak? Also, how would Amtrak’s infamous capacity to overcharge and cost shift from the NEC be contained?
5) Will the operator be required to meet union requirements for T&E and OBS crew? To follow American or Canadian work rules?
6) How will property and accident insurance be obtained; in Canada or US?
As we experienced in Indiana (2013), their is no shortage of “foamer” excitement to embrace “I think I can,” until they hit the wall of reality unable to resolve the above issues and questions. If it was so easy, legitimate investors would be lined up with real operators.
How long were they in “the former Coaticook railway station, now a craft brewery” before they came up with this?
A June, 1954 Official Guide shows only a day train between Portland and Montreal via Island Pond over CNR-GT Ry.
Boston-Montreal had a day train (Alouette) and a night train (Red Wing) via White River Jct and Wells River over B&M-CPR. Red Wing had a Pullman Buffet-Lounge sleeper that served breakfast to sleeper passengers.
DOA if you ask me. Who will they get to ride it? 15 hours on the train vs. 90 minutes by air and maybe 6-7 hours to drive from Portland, another couple from Boston. Intermediate stops will provide few passengers as after Sherbrooke there are few communities with sufficient population. Plus, as others have mentioned lack of equipment, and no one has mentioned staffing.
From Danville Junction (near Auburn, Maine) to Old Orchard Beach, then on to Boston would have to be on CSX. And as for the St. Lawrence & Atlantic part, I doubt that trackage is rated for anything above 40 mph.
I seriously doubt this idea will ever go anywhere.
This is nofot, of course, any of the historic through day and night routes between Boston and Montreal, which were via Concord, NH, and White River Jc. or Wells River Jc., VT, or via Bellows Falls and Rutland, VT. But after the last run of the Allouette, a two Budd RDC CP & B & M MU, still carrying the name, I had a business trip that permitted travel Friday afternoon and evening, and so rode B&M RDCs to Portland, a taxi transfer with two others to the Grand Trunk Station, and enjoyed a parlor-car ride and light supper in a modernized heavyweight named Allouette. (Friday and Sunday service only) nMuch timw on the rear platform.
So, what is CSX’ take on hosting another passenger train?
At Steve Foster. Being interstate has nothing to do with Amtrak having to run it. It could be bid out to a third party operator if all the proper i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed. The problem is who has the deep pockets to do it? What would it take to build a few more Viewliner Diners and sleepers. The same car shell could be used for coach. But the history of problems building anything rail passenger these days isn’t promising.
A 15 hour “overnight” would obviously include a dinner and perhaps a breakfast before you disembark.
I don’t blame anyone not wanting to tie anything to Amtrak, not with their record, I would want the direct route to Boston. Who wants to get up at 1AM to change trains? Not me.
Ask the Quebec Pension Funds, they are buying into everything, perhaps they will fund the route.
So where is this train going to get the equipment? Diners and sleeping cars are in extreme shortage.
I don’t have an answer to this, however…as you have noted the fleets of FRA compliant, overnight stock are at their thinnest numbers in modern history. This leads to one of two outcomes: overnight trains disappear in North America or new stock is ordered en masse. If the later comes to pass soon anyone with resources could tack on to that order.
Actually I did once ride from Montreal to Boston. Montreal to New Haven, then New Haven to Boston South Station I don’t remember how long it took, just that I enjoyed the trip and got enough sleep that I was fine the rest of the day in Massachusetts.
We had smartly uniformed VIA CN trainmen out of Montreal (whose French-language announcements sounded even worse than me trying to speak French), swapped for a CV train crew out of St. Albans dressed for a freight train.
When was this?
How likely will is that going to happen?
Odds are slim to none. Would be nice nonetheless.
I can’t imagine Amtrak wanting to have anything to do with it as far as providing equipment. However, since its interstate in the US, current law means Amtrak would have to operate it in the US.
I don’t know what an airline trip between its 2 end points currently takes but it can’t be more than 90 minutes.
Of course there are flights from Boston to Montreal. But how about Portland to Montreal? Portland has an airport. Southwest flies there, but Southwest doesn’t do Montreal.
I checked all the other airlines. Lots of flights to Portland but not from there to Montreal. Change of flights required in places like Newark or Washington Dulles.
but which passenger carrier will handle this overnight passenger service ?
Fifteen hours and 45 minutes is NOT an overnight train.
Depends on how you define overnight. The Broadway Limited and Twentieth Century Limited both ran in 15.5 hours and were considered overnight.