MONTREAL— VIA Rail Canada has issued a formal “Request for Qualification” for prospective carbuilders to replace long-distance, regional, and remote-service passenger cars that date from the mid-1950s. This follows a November RFQ for locomotives to power the new single-level equipment.
The request issued today (Monday, Dec. 9) follows a commitment earlier this year by the Trudeau government to fund a new fleet that would allow VIA to retire the stainless steel coaches, diners, sleeping cars, and dome-lounges of the Toronto-Vancouver, British Columbia, Canadian. Those cars were first placed in service by Canadian Pacific in 1954 and have become increasingly difficult to maintain, as have the Renaissance coaches and sleepers dating from the late 1990s currently assigned to the Montreal-Halifax, Nova Scotia, Ocean. If not replaced, service outside the Quebec City-Windsor, Ont., corridor would end because the company has deemed recently arriving Venture trainsets unsuitable to meet long-distance passenger needs.
VIA is seeking nine different car types. It is important to note that the illustrations VIA provided are only suggestions based on feedback from manufacturers, not necessarily an exact depiction of what may actually be built.
Collaborative process
In an exclusive Trains News Wire interview, Arnaud Lacaze, VIA’s vice president of fleet renewal programs, explained that the process leading to today’s passenger car RFQ began with a business-case presentation to Transport Canada, the funding agency, in 2022. After getting a green light to proceed, the following year, he says, “We built a project team to develop a request for information in collaboration with any interested manufacturers to participate with us in developing specifications for the variety of car types needed.”
The in-house team had candid separate, confidential discussions with individual carbuilders over a year and a half beginning in 2023 to identify VIA’s desires for lounge, dining, and sleeping space — including accessibility requirements — as well as the manufacturer’s capabilities. “At the end, we found out what they can do — and what they cannot do,” Lacaze says. “We’re not saying there’s no risk, but we are confident enough that the specifications are aligned with the discussions we had with them.”
Every meeting was attended by an independent, impartial “fairness monitor” and there was an equal opportunity for every carbuilder to give feedback, but it was up to each manufacturer if they wanted to participate in the RFI process. Of the eight carbuilders who originally expressed interest, Lacaze says four entered in active talks.
As an example of the meetings, he said a discussion of lounge space might see either party ask, “If we made this change, would it be better for you?”
This collaborative approach is far different than what News Wire has learned from various sources to be how Amtrak has addressed prospective carbuilders with its bilevel equipment long-distance procurement. Amtrak’s initial Request for Proposals was issued in December 2023 with specific requirements for manufacturers, such as elevators in certain cars. At least 10 amendments to the RFP followed, based on what the two remaining bidders were willing to attempt; Amtrak’s latest deadline is reportedly Dec. 15. 2024.
Order to include four types of sleepers
The call for nine types of car is actually a substantial reduction from the start of the process.
“Our main target was to reduce the number of car types,” Lacaze says. “We started with 21 and were able to reduce that to nine that would work on all routes: the Canadian, the Ocean, and trains to Gaspe, Prince Rupert, Churchill, and remote Ontario and Quebec communities.”
Of the nine types in the finalized RFQ, three duplicate historical designs and function:
— Baggage. Must accommodate large items delivered to remote stops, contain climate-controlled areas for dogs
— Coaches. Ranging from short day use to multi-night trips
— Dining. The illustration shows a double-window Viewliner-type design, which Lacaze confirmed was high on VIA’s wish list. Today’s press release notes the cars “will have a full kitchen, allowing our chefs to prepare tasty meals using fresh ingredients, with an emphasis on local produce.”
Sleeping-car options offer varied accommodations, but not in the same car:
— Room sleeper. Gone is the “cabin for one” roomette. All accommodations will be for two with facing seats. Details on the room size appear to be subject to further design input, but “the intention,” Lacaze says, “will be to have a row of upper berth windows.”
— Accessible sleeper. All rooms in this car can accommodate passengers with disabilities. The larger accommodation would be similar to a bedroom layout
— Berth sleeper. Surprise! Creating an all-section car will help bridge the pricing and comfort gap on overnight journeys. In a way, it harkens back to the “tourist sleeper” concept employed by Canadian National, Canadian Pacific, and other western roads in the 1950s. In the post-World War II lightweight era, only the California Zephyr and some Union Pacific trains debuted with streamlined all-section cars, which were later converted to coaches. The great advantage of berths is that passengers can socialize and see landscape on both sides of the train.
–Prestige sleeper. The pricey accommodation remanufactured from eight Budd Chateau sleepers by Wisconsin’s Avalon Rail was a hit on the Canadian. The number of bedrooms will be determined by what the manufacturer can cost-effectively build while retaining the desired features, such as the fold-down double bed.
Lounge cars will retain curved glass and domes:
— Panorama lounge. The design reinvents as a full-window lounge Colorado Railcar’s Panorama coach, which VIA acquired from BC Rail’s defunct Whistler Northwind (and previously the Florida Fun Train experiment of the 1990s).
— Dome-lounge. Lacaze tells News Wire this car was an iconic addition that would only be deployed on the Canadian. “It’s not possible to duplicate the Park car’s round end — it would cost a lot. It will be like the Skyline lounge car.” This center car dome is what VIA depicted in the rendering released Monday. There will be a lift of some type allowing passengers with disabilities to get to the dome. “We don’t want to be prescriptive,” says Lacaze. “We will work with the manufacturer to make it fully accessible.”
VIA expects to select one builder’s total package. “We are open to any proposed joint venture,” Lacaze says, “ but there will be one contract.” Timelines for delivery and the sequence of production have already been discussed with each manufacturer and is in the RFQ, but details were not immediately available.
The last time a complete set of long-distance passenger cars of all types was conceived was Pullman Standard’s Superliner order of the mid-1970s, developed under Amtrak’s then president, Paul Reistrup. That equipment was reprised with Bombardier-built Superliner IIs in the early 1990s. Viewliner dining car and sleeper prototypes conceived at Beech Grove debuted in 1987 resulted in production orders beginning in 1995 from Morrison-Knudsen and 2012 from CAF, USA. Cost-overrun and production issues helped bankrupt M-K and delayed CAF deliveries.
Clearly, this is a risky process. But it appears VIA has taken every step possible to join with manufacturers and confront challenges in a collaborative way.
— Updated at 6:40 p.m. to clarify elements of Amtrak RFP process; updated Dec. 10 at 10:15 a.m. to note the history of all-section streamlined sleeping cars.
Thank you VIA Rail for keeping the dome car alive. I feel it is a better car to sightsee from since you get both a forward looking view as well as the topside views. As to the sleeping cars rather than having section cars I feel they should see about reviving the old slumbercoach sleeper. These cars had rather small spaces but were private for one and a few two person units at an economical cost compared to a true first class sleeper. As to the observation car at the end of the train. I feel it may be better to just design a flattened car with large rear facing windows and a door in the middle. Then that makes that car more flexible in train service. If needed it could be placed anywhere in the consist. But it should run on the end to still give those unique rear view sights.
As to obs caes, boat-tail in particular, whatever the excuse given by the consultant or PR person, I’m sure VIA don’t want to deal with a single-end, rear of train only car.
Remember, in the USA, ALL cars must be accessible. Aviation is excused because it is a USA-developed experimental technology that needs all the support it can get.
How about flat end observation cars similar to the Phoebe Snow observation with large floor to ceiling windows to the rear.
Would love to see Amtrash take inspiration from its neighbour to the north.
John – Presume your British spelling is deliberate, in an effort to reinforce your point.
Of course these renderings are artist’s representation of the basic idea for each car-set. The chosen final bid will reflect the builder’s feedback and VIA Rail’s ability to adjust the ideal to meet market expectations and design practicality.
That said what most impresses me is that unlike Amtrak VIA has selected single-level cars nationwide. This will very significantly impact costs, and in a positive way, compared to our “bi-levels in the west and single-level in the east” past and if Amtrak has its way future practice. Not least of the benefits of the VIA design will be to facilitate enroute consist adjustments–for example if the OCEAN train splits at Matapedia to serve both the Gaspe branch and the mainline to Halifax.
These cars are also individual units, making adding or removing cars easier (and more efficient) than will be the case with Amtrak’s deeply flawed idea of a “core” in the center each train-set that would contain multiple handicap accessible cars (including the diner and snack lounge) but would be semi-permanently coupled. In the Amtrak vision you can’t just swap out a “broken” diner without also needing to change additional “core” cars.
In the past Amtrak/US designs have typically been adopted (adapted) for Canadian needs. Could we hope this time that Amtrak might look at VIA’s design concepts here?
Several Canadians have pointed out that VIA does anticipate a handicap “core”, but as long as cars can be quickly added or removed that is fine. Key is the use of standard couplers between cars.
So – I spoke too soon above, it looks like VIA is attempting the accessible corridor through multiple cars, but at least with the gangway on the lower level. I am not aware of anything like this in the world other than truly articulated equipment.
It would still seem better to have accessible hub cars based on the dome configuration, as described above with two full width drop center level suites that would be massive, and then paired stairs and an elevator to the dome above where food could be served. They could either be made with no hallway on the lower level and all traffic proceeds through the dome level or one could have a 32″ hallway and a much longer accessible suite that is say 78″ wide x 16′ long and elevators at the end of the hallway to either a lounge at the regular floor height or to the dome.
Seems like VIA is moving towards a process that will receive much more competitive bids in that it is not as prescriptive. It would be really interesting to see the business case referenced. Probably single level, or perhaps a duplex arrangement of sleeper rooms, is the better solution for a long-distance trains. If you think about it, the concepts noted are extension of the Rocky Mountaineer single level newer cars except for the dome. The dome could become an accessible hub so to speak, with boarding from the lower level drop center and two integrated accessible suites the full width of the car, and a elevator from the central boarding area to the dome level where food would be served.
In contrasts, the premise behind the Amtrak procurement that people in wheelchairs will be able to navigate between cars at the upper level gangways seems challenged. Yes, I took the time to create a comment to Amtrak’s alternative request and submitted it but it appears that Amtrak is locked in with whatever concept a consultant came up with. In the comment I specifically asked that they do some type of study with people in wheelchairs trying to navigate a 32″+ upper level gangway. I help a partially disabled person and even with me pushing I cannot see how I would attempt to cross at any speed such a gangway.
Ha – spoke too soon. VIA is apparently trying to create a several car long accessible path. At least the gangway would be on the lower level and perhaps less subject to bouncing. It would still probably be better for a single dome type accessible hub car for those truly in wheelchairs as described above then make he rest of the train soft-accessible, like the van and walker parking space distinction.
Go to the link below and you can at the bottom you can downloads a few additional files and a video. https://media.viarail.ca/en/node/38795
“…Creating an all-section car—none were ever built in the lightweight streamliner era…” – didn’t the original CBQ/DRGW/WP California Zephyr (with cars manufactured by lightweight car producer Budd) have seven 16-section sleepers? I believe these cars were later converted to 48-seat coaches.
Correct. The UP had some as well, also subsequesntly rebuilt to coaches.
And let’s not forget the Touralux sleepers on the Milwaukee Road:
https://www.trains.com/ctr/photos-videos/photo-of-the-day/milwaukee-road-touralux-sleeper/
Do I have to dial up my BS Meter at 4:24 AM? Sorry my BS Meter is just about exploding. It’s not like I enjoy being this forum’s cynic but the article forces me to be. The interior renderings show ultra-spacious luxury that to me doesn’t seem to fit within the envelope of available loading gauge.
I should think that to be credible, we’d get the RFPs from the manufacturers then do the renderings.
I have followed passenger railroading for far too long to accept a fantasy rendering from the set designers for Harry Potter movies.
Relax Professor Landey. These are only fantasy concepts from the railroad from which may be adapted to reality. Conversely, where are the conceptual drawings from the NRPC?
Don’t quite understand why it would be”not possible” to have a round-end obs because it would “cost a lot.” This is probably a 50 year or so investment. The Park cars have been much loved, in addition to making the train look good. Maybe something to do with not wanting to turn them at end points, or no longer being able to do so, as at Halifax?
Have to wonder why a two-level car was not considered. Maybe even a car type extra height such as the Rocky Mountain car
i hope the budd cars find new homes and via rail does have siemens trainsets for there corridor service
Ride the Budds while you can. I am glad they are hoping to replicate significant parts of the experience with new equipment.
there is a number of budd cars that are preserved